Kelly’s Choice – Live Wives & Knives Meeting – Phoebe Handsjuk.
I was trying to get ahead with my Wives and Knives work so I started writing this straight after I had finished putting the notes together for last week’s case, almost a week later and I am still confused and unsure.
We had a good meeting; I had some technical issues… Second rule of Murder club – always charge your iPad/phone or tablet. Lucy couldn’t make it and was missed but the rest of us managed to get through the case.
We are meeting up to do a live Wives and Knives this week and visiting a local eatery to discuss the moors murders and our imminent trip to the Yorkshire moors. We do love a Wives & Knives field trip... I promise to pop the pictures of our recent trip to Blackpool on here soon, where Dani gave us a walking tour and we discussed a case that is one of Dani’s ‘Favourites’ – the case of Charlene Downes. We will cover this case soon and I know Dani and I have spoken about the possibility of it being the first case we officially record.
Okay enough rambling… On with the case.
You May not recognise her name , but what you may remember is how she died. She is the girl from the garbage chute. And that in itself is a very unusual way to die. There are no other reported mysterious garbage chute related deaths in Australia, 2 strange ones in the same building in Baltimore, USA (but these were head first); and none in the UK that I could find.
There was a man very recently in Dundee who was found in the alley leading to a garbage chute but nothing like this.
This is a case that has always intrigued me. I remember reading about Phoebe’s death and what had happened to her and it ‘sticking with me’ because it was just so strange and I perhaps on some level connected with Phoebe. When we started doing murder club, I added her to my list of possible cases to cover, now here in 2020 there is so much more to the case and I have done my best to cover everything.
Before we really get into the case, I can’t recommend the podcast Phoebe’s Fall (2016) enough. It’s presented by two of the journalists who covered her case and then some - Michael Bachelard and Richard Baker. They have interviewed everyone of note, that would be interviewed; and have an excellent website to accompany it.
I have listened to it several times whilst refreshing myself on this case and would strongly suggest doing so if you are really interested. There are also lots of other podcasts that cover Phoebe’s case but this is the most intensive, if you are however looking for a short breakdown then I would recommend the not ur moms podcast 3 part-er as well as the morbid podcast; as always any sources I have used have been referenced within this blog or in the reference section.
Phoebe Handsjuk a 24-year-old Australian, died from blood loss on Thursday the 22nd December 2010.
Phoebe is said to have climbed into the galvanised steel rubbish chute and then fallen 40 meters (feet first) down it landing in the garbage compactor; severing her foot and leg.
Phoebe then crawled around the cold, dark & locked ground floor room she found herself in where she sadly bled to death.
She was found hours later by a concierge at the high-end St Kilda road Balencea apartment complex where she lived with her partner Anthony ‘Ant’ Hampel.
The door was blocked when the concierge tried to gain entry but when she did, she found Phoebe. (it’s said she peered through the small window and saw what she thought was a mannequin on the floor)
The concierge, Beth, is by all accounts still traumatised by what she saw in that room. Before Beth called the police, she called her boss - she said there was a body on the compacter room floor, and he confirms that she was inconsolable.
When the emergency services arrived and were led to the room, they checked inside but didn’t check if phoebe was alive; or if she had any signs of life.
No one checking her for signs of life can be rationalised or explained away to a point, but it is strange.
What makes this case stranger is that no one checked CCTV from that day, despite being advised it wouldn’t be available for long. There were no usable fingerprints on the chute’s exterior, or handle and there was blood and broken glass found in the apartment.
The widely accepted theory of what happened to Phoebe, and the theory that the police ran with almost immediately; was that she committed suicide. The Coroner later ruled that she climbed into the chute by herself in a haze of alcohol and sleeping pills and hadn’t intended to kill herself; her death was ruled an accident.
Peter White – The Coroner said, ‘that a combination of Zolpidem and alcohol impacted upon her mental state which directly led to her entry into the chute.’ He went on to say that he believed that Phoebe had dropped a glass and then when she went to clean it up had cut her finger, explaining the blood on the computer desk and mouse.
The coroner then said she dumped a bag of rubbish down the chute, and her so called enthusiasm for climbing in a sleep walking or confused state compelled her to get into the chute, and with no consideration for the dangers began to climb down to the ground floor before plunging to her death”
As far as the authorities were concerned, that was it - cut and dried. finished with no investigation into Phoebe’s death.
A tragic accident, right? A vulnerable young woman who was well known to drink and use drugs had decided to climb feet first through a small slot and disposed of herself down the garbage chute.
It doesn’t quite sit right that every official seems happy not to question that - yep totes acceptable theory. Accident – move on. Phoebe’s death was closed without any real investigation.
That wasn’t enough for Phoebe’s family, especially for her mother Natalie and her father; Phoebe’s grandfather - Lorne
Lorne is an ex detective and immediately he didn’t believe that Phoebe had killed herself. Aside from being a grieving grandfather, what bothered the ex-detective were the obvious questions that the circumstances and the evidence at the scene raised.
Lorne and the rest of the family wanted answers or at least someone to take them seriously and investigate the inaccuracies; But that couldn’t happen.
As I mentioned a moment ago, the coroner had ruled that Phoebe’s death was an accident. Now in Australia much like the UK, a coroners ruling can fall into Suicide, Accident, Homicide or Open finding, the first are self-explanatory but the latter means that in a suspicious or unusual death, further investigations can take place if new evidence is uncovered or if there is a significant break in the case. In the others until a ruling is appealed and overturned/changed no further investigations apart from private ones can take place.
Phoebe’s family pushed for an appeal for an informal inquest into her death, which is where most of this information comes from.
They are granted an investigation and after that there is a full inquest were everyone from the case is called to speak and every detail was analysed.
The council assisting the coroner compiles a report alongside the coroner, they act as a second set of eyes and their report acts as a recommendation to the coroner. In Phoebes case the assistant advices that something doesn’t add up with the case and supports an open finding/verdict. The coroner overrules this and sticks with his initial theory.
Thank you again Phoebe’s fall for educating us here and confirming that this is unusual behaviour; They very rarely disagree on their decisions. The coroner called on people to support the inquest and the decision and one of those was
Phoebes psychologist. She was interviewed at this time and she stated that in the months leading up to the fall, she had been her most worried about Phoebe. Still it’s an unusual thing for someone to do.
I’m going to just stop there because I want to talk a little bit about Phoebe here, I think to get a truly well rounded image of ‘The fall’ we need a fully rounded view of all the key players. So, our leading lady herself; Phoebe.
The 60 mins documentary – shocking mystery of the girl who fell down garbage chute to her death.
Notes Phoebe as being known as vibrant and cheeky – but also quite shy.
In the same documentary Phoebes mother describes Phoebe’s attitude to life as ‘she drove it like she stole it’
It’s clear from listening to her friends talk about her in interviews that she was well loved and made an impact on many lives. In Phoebes Fall you can hear her friends Alicia Carvel and Hazel Brown speaking about her fondly. from the stories they tell She was very spirited and determined – she wouldn’t do what she didn’t want to do. Her friend Alicia tells how she just quit her job after a day, and she stripped off a uniform rather than pay for it and went home in her underwear.
Phoebe in herself proves to be a determined character, I took this from the Phoebe’s fall where her friend and and the professional boxer Sarah Howett explains that she spent a lot of time with Phoebe at the gym they both attended, they would spend up to 8 hours a day there and so grew close quickly. Phoebe did everything quickly it would seem because she also notes how Phoebe was Fast tracked to get her black belt in 2 years when it usually takes five .
Sarah & Phoebe trained under George Coloris at the Melbourne fight club - he is interviewed for the podcast also and explains how Phoebe wanted to train and better herself physically and mentally, he respected that and he taught her, he remembers how he taught her a kick once and when she recreated it she straight up knocked him out.
Another close friend tells how one night, drunk she scaled the roof of a building and began jumping from rooftop to roof top. Phoebe loved to climb and was known to be extremely physical and reckless at times. Her Nan says that Phoebe was ‘legless’ after two drinks so not sure how drunk Phoebe really was or how accurate that is.
Her friends also remember how they would go into town from a young age (14) to socialise and drink - they would get free drinks from people they met in the club.
We’ve all done it in some shape or form haven’t we? I was the same age drinking in town... many moons ago... as were Dani & Shar.
So, whilst her friends were getting free drinks off people Phoebe would go off and come back with lots of drugs. They confirm that her relationship with drink and drugs started at a young age.
Someone extremely close to Phoebe who confirms this also is Jeanette Campbell (her Nan) - she is Natalie’s mum and they live in Malakuda together, which she says was a special safe space for Phoebe.
‘Their relationship was based on trust and confidence, she was non-judgemental, they discussed drug use and the effects of drug use. Jeanette advised Phoebe that she hadn’t been able to use LSD and advised Phoebe not to use it herself as she was a sensitive person’
Jeanette notes with Natalie’s agreement that 14 year old Phoebe was taking recreational drugs, she thinks that it possibly effected Phoebe and again mentions her ‘sensitivity’.
I hate being called sensitive. Pisses me off. I feel like it’s a personal affront to possible delicate mental health. Like it lessons the complaint? If that makes sense.
As well as the recreational drugs that her family are aware she used, Phoebe also started to use prescription Anti depressants at the age of 16 and this use continued intermittently throughout her entire life. Her mother is quoted as saying that she thought her uncontrolled use or sporadic use of these prescription drugs was dangerous. At the time of her death Phoebe was also taking Mood stabilisers and sleeping tablets.
I want to be clear here,I’m throwing no shade or judging anyone for what prescription or recreational drugs Phoebe or anyone may have used, there definitely feels throughout all of the research that there is that stigma around Phoebe’s mental health and it in my opinion definitely impeded the investigation and ruling - among other things but we’ll get to that.
Anyway, so Phoebe was very close to her family, growing up her best friend was her brother Tom and they remained close throughout her life. she was a Tom boy of sorts, up for a good time, very adventurous and unconventional.
Phoebe with her brothers Tom & Nicolai.
Phoebes mother Natalie and father, Len Handsjuk separated for a while when Phoebe was younger but they later reconnected – I’m no Psychologist but I wonder if that could relate to Phoebe obsessing over older men? Her father who is a psychologist can be heard speaking about Phoebe in the podcast and he doesn’t believe that she was depressed or note anything that makes him support the suicide theory.
Len was close to Phoebe and due to meet up with her and Ant that very evening, he deciphers meanings from Phoebes poems. Listen to the podcast and see what you think? We all interpret things differently.
An extremely creative person as well as writing poems, Phoebe created pieces of Art and installations, she also kept journals. Many excerpts of these are read throughout the podcast that offer a view into Phoebe’s thoughts. all of which are open to interpretation, but she was awfully close to her family and I do feel that her mother understands those writings best. I’m left with the feeling that Phoebe was depressed and was struggling with some internal issues that perhaps she hid very well.
Her parents and family in general are candid about her life and her lifestyle and one area of this is regarding Phoebe’s relationships, her obsessions and her fixations with older men.
There are a few things that I picked up whilst listening to Phoebes fall that I found quite interesting in that her family speak quite frankly about her relationship with a teacher when she was sixteen, and he was in his thirties, Phoebe and the teacher had a full relationship orchestrated to the point where he changed schools so that it wouldn’t be against her schools rules, never mind his ethical and moral ones. This teacher lived with Phoebe and her mother for a time, it was a stable and loving relationship by all accounts, until the relationship came to a natural end and Phoebe started a new relationship with another older man, this time an actor and musician. Natalie and Jeanette talk of the ‘teacher’ relationship as a ‘meeting of bodies and minds’ Her Nan says that Phoebe liked the relationship dynamic of having an authoritarian figure in charge of her.
This is a theme - all the women in her family have a tradition or penchant for going with older men
There is a lot of casual talk of older men and how all the women in Phoebe’s family tend to be attracted to them; most of the key relationships mentioned in Natalie & Jeanette’s life involves a significant age gap.
Each to their own but not in my house. I personally have no issues with age gap relationships, you do you whatever makes you happy and if no one is getting abused or taken advantage of. If this was my daughter I can’t see myself being okay with that and I’m being critical here and trying so hard not to judge but you are clearly aware your child is doing drugs and dating older men and not only that but you are kind of enabling her.
Natalie says that Phoebe threw herself into every relationship she found herself in, her dad Len remembers her as a romantic.
Phoebe is said to have been aware of her effect on men - again interpreted through her journals
She is aware of her power over them, I mean cringe I’d hate it if my notebooks got dissected like this; it’s a private thought not a mission statement is what I’m trying to get at. I feel like it’s a weird comment.
A year before she died, she became ‘obsessed’ her mother’s words - with another teacher, this time at the art school she was attending. Phoebe is said to have sent him emails and ordered him to have an affair with her. Ultimately this behaviour ended up getting her kicked out of art school.
It would seem for an artistic and creative girl like Phoebe this would be quite the blow and perhaps she was unsure of what to do with her life or her career. In mid-2009 she was working in an upmarket Melbourne hair salon when she met Anthony Hampel.
Ant was in his 40s and the founder of W event management and had built up his entertainment companies becoming highly successful. The company won awards for its extravagant events and customers included Michael Jackson, Riverdance, Kylie, and even AC/DC - he was well known on the scene and schmoozed with Australia’s elite. For Phoebe this was all new and she wasn’t used to life with the high flying and monied Ant.
Ant was very different to her other boyfriends he was polished, wealthy and was connected, helping her brother Tom get a job, the family didn’t dislike him as such but didn’t think he was the one or quite right for Phoebe.
Phoebe moved in with Ant a few months later, paying her rent by working part time at a marketing company for one of Ant’s friends.
You can check out the apartments on a few different websites, some are for sale so you can have a little virtual nosey, they are high end and quite sparsely decorated; Kind of what you would expect Patrick Bateman to live in. According to Ant’s cleaner, his apartment was like that, clean and just so.
Jeanette says that there were only a few pictures of Phoebe in the flat, her things were kept downstairs in storage. He liked it a certain way and he liked Phoebe to keep it a certain way, nothing out of place.
Phoebe appeared to change once with Ant, she didn’t spend any time with her old friends and adopted his circle of friends, her friends confirmed she drifted away from them to a new circle.
Vanessa Levin who had been friends with Ant for over twenty years was one of those new friends and her and Phoebe became close, she later made comments to the coroner, and I’ve quoted some here.
She says they, the couple, had problems - Ant was controlling, he loved her but she (Phoebe) had no voice in the relationship
From most people’s perspective, Phoebe wasn’t entirely happy with Ant and in the 18 months they were together their relationship was far from smooth and they were well known to have been unhappy, in the six weeks leading up to her death Phoebe and Ant had broken up four times; this is confirmed by brother Tom.
Her father Len says that she was concerned Ant may propose to her soon and implies that Phoebe wasn’t going to say yes if that happened.
Under Ant’s influence she also changed her appearance, Phoebe cut her hair short and her Nan says that she ended up looking like a younger version of Ant’s sister Krissy.
She notes that Krissy lent Phoebe clothes to match her new lifestyle - Phoebe told her Nan that Krissy was a ‘coke’ dealer and ‘that’s how she makes money’ it was a pretty accurate confession because later in
2014 Krissy Hampel was caught selling bags of cocaine. Interestingly Ant’s sister got off lightly due to the ‘embarrassment to her family’ a longer punishment might cause.
Phoebe and Krissy were by all accounts close, and not surprisingly Phoebe admitted to taking coke occasionally, but always supplied by her friend. This is confirmed by her Psychiatrist, Joanna Young who Phoebe had confided in for a year before her death.
Phoebe told her that depression was still a problem and the drink, but she had taken coke only occasionally.
Her relationship status and unhappiness are further confirmed by Joanna who says that Phoebe confirmed she had relationship struggles and quoted Phoebe as saying...
"Ant is defensive aggro and aggressive" and that ‘Ant’s attitude is making her uncomfortable."
Her Therapist said that she wasn’t suicidal however but mildly depressed.
Jeanette says that Phoebe had decided to leave Ant, she had moved to Malacuda and had even lined up a new job down there, but for whatever reason she kept going back.
Who hasn’t been there? Whether it’s a person that isn’t good for you or the last donut, you know you shouldn’t ugh, but you do.
So, what happened the week leading up to her death and more importantly the day she died?
On the Sunday of Phoebe’s final week she had called her Mum to talk via Skype Natalie says that Phoebe said she had gone back to Ant’s and that things were tense she couldn’t talk freely because he was in the other room so the call ended.
The next day on the Monday Phoebe saw her Psychiatrist where her mood is noted as being extremely low. Later that evening her and Ant went to dinner, Ant reportedly told Phoebe to stop telling people about their relationship issues and they ended up leaving early. Phoebe was notably upset and left Ant, arranging to meet an old friend instead. They had a drink together and, in that hour, Ant called her 27 times. Phoebe’s friend Brendan who she was out with that night says she threw the phone across the road, breaking it and that Phoebe had ended up at her mums and had had a talk to her mums then partner.
On Tuesday morning she returns to Ant, during that time she makes calls to a crisis line the hospital and her psychologist, who spoke to her for 30 mins. Joanna young doesn’t think that Phoebe is going to kill herself and makes no further arrangements for Phoebe.
Phoebe texts her Nan to say she is okay and then she goes out again, we aren’t sure who with, but Ant says it was probably ‘that Brendan or some drug dealer’ he also implies that Phoebe took ecstasy. She has ‘the broken’ phone on Tuesday
In the early morning hours of the Wednesday, the day before Phoebe’s death - Phoebe sent a strange text to her family from the broken iPhone, to Ant and even to her boss; it is now commonly referred to as the tomato soup text.
"Hi family I’m in bed about to sleep and when I wake, I will transform into the most incredible human being you have ever seen, not! I will go to hospital, it is much safer there and I hear that the special tonight is tomato soup, delicious, nutritious, I love you all very much but not enough to send an individual text, sorry about that. Time is sleep and I must be on my way, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. Xo.
We all agreed that if we received that message from anyone in the group, we would be worried. It’s a concerning text from anyone, they sound a bit ‘off’ and her family thought so too, and this text started a thread of calls and messages between her family until Jeanette contacts Ant.
Ant reassures her that Phoebe seemed fine when he left her that morning but she was sleeping off a ‘bender’ he offers to go and check on her - but that was never confirmed as happening so we’re not sure if Ant actually did check on her. the family are appeased by his reassurance at this point, and Len was due to meet them the next evening for dinner, so they weren’t overly concerned at this time.
The next morning the Thursday, 2nd December Len calls Phoebe on the iPhone but she doesn’t answer, Ant later says he took the iPhone to work the previous morning to get it fixed, so why or how did she send the text. Perhaps he is confused because Ant later changes his story and says he took the phone, possibly Thursday, there are no records at the shop, but Ants dad later produces a receipt confirming his sons story a few days after Phoebe’s death.
Phoebe had two phones at the time of her death, a personal Nokia and the iPhone that Ant gave her; and it sounds like they possibly shared this phone.
When I asked this question – aside from work phones (a lot of people have them anyway but due to wfh, more of us have a work mobile now) and a personal mobile. Who has two phones? Drug dealer!! It was the first thing Dani said and more than a few more.
Ant leaves for work and pSo, what happened the week leading up to her death and more importantly the day she died?
On the Sunday of Phoebe’s final week she had called her Mum to talk via Skype Natalie says that Phoebe said she had gone back to Ant’s and that things were tense she couldn’t talk freely because he was in the other room so the call ended.
The next day on the Monday Phoebe saw her Psychiatrist where her mood is noted as being extremely low. Later that evening her and Ant went to dinner, Ant reportedly told Phoebe to stop telling people about their relationship issues and they ended up leaving early. Phoebe was notedly upset and left Ant, arranging to meet an old friend instead. They had a drink together and, in that hour, Ant called her 27 times. Phoebe’s friend Brendan who she was out with that night says she threw the phone across the road, breaking it and that Phoebe had ended up at her mums and had had a talk to her mums then partner.
On Tuesday morning she returns to Ant, during that time she makes calls to a crisis line the hospital and her psychologist, who spoke to her for 30 mins. Joanna young doesn’t think that Phoebe is going to kill herself and makes no further arrangements for Phoebe.
Phoebe texts her Nan to say she is okay and then she goes out again, we aren’t sure who with, but Ant says it was probably ‘that Brendan or some drug dealer’ he also implies that Phoebe took ecstasy. She has ‘the broken’ phone on Tuesday
In the early morning hours of the Wednesday, the day before Phoebe’s death - Phoebe sent a strange text to her family from the broken iPhone, to Ant and even to her boss; it is now commonly referred to as the tomato soup text.
"Hi family I’m in bed about to sleep and when I wake, I will transform into the most incredible human being you have ever seen, not! I will go to hospital, it is much safer there and I hear that the special tonight is tomato soup, delicious, nutritious, I love you all very much but not enough to send an individual text, sorry about that. Time is sleep and I must be on my way, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. Xo.
We all agreed that if we received that message from anyone in the group, we would be worried. It’s a concerning text from anyone, they sound a bit ‘off’ and her family thought so too, and this text started a thread of calls and messages between her family until Jeanette contacts Ant.
Ant reassures her that Phoebe seemed fine when he left her that morning but she was sleeping off a ‘bender’ he offers to go and check on her - but that was never confirmed as happening so we’re not sure if Ant actually did check on her. the family are appeased by his reassurance at this point, and Len was due to meet them the next evening for dinner, so they weren’t overly concerned at this time.
The next morning the Thursday, 2nd December Len calls Phoebe on the iPhone but she doesn’t answer, Ant later says he took the iPhone to work the previous morning to get it fixed, so why or how did she send the text. Perhaps he is confused because Ant later changes his story and says he took the phone, possibly Thursday, there are no records at the shop, but Ants dad later produces a receipt confirming his sons story a few days after Phoebe’s death.
Phoebe had two phones at the time of her death, a personal Nokia and the iPhone that Ant gave her; and it sounds like they possibly shared this phone.
When I asked this question – aside from work phones (a lot of people have them anyway but due to wfh, more of us have a work mobile now) and a personal mobile. Who has two phones? Drug dealer!! It was the first thing Dani said and more than a few more.
Ant leaves for work and Phoebe is still in bed, again purported to be sleeping off a ‘bender’, at 08:45am Phoebe sends an email and spends some time on her computer. At 11:43 am the fire alarm goes off and she leaves the apartment with her dog Yoshi. On the CCTV it is observed that at 11:44am she leaves through the doors, stumbling slightly - is she drunk? Did her dog pull her?
Phoebe returns 7 mins later going back into the building at 11.50am this is the last image of her alive.
She uses the computer again and then nothing further is recorded. At some time between 12 and 7pm she goes into the chute and plunges to her death.
Ant had got home round 6pm and all was normal in the building, there were no police around, no reports that we know of, and no-one knowing Phoebe is anywhere but in her apartment.
Swipe records from Ant’s key fob show he didn’t get home until 6.09pm – he can’t remember if the front door was locked or not.
According to the coroners findings he sees glass on the floor and another glass on the counter which he says smell like vodka, he sees Phoebe’s handbag and her keys with her key fob on them and then he keeps walking into the bedroom where he sees a shrine as he describes it on the bed, which include random ramblings on post it notes, photographs.
There is also a recording of Ant explaining this to Natalie, he notes the shrine on the bed and how Phoebe wouldn’t have left without her handbag. He also mentions The monster - she was coping with the depression, didn’t want to burden her family anymore, didn’t feel worthy of him, that no one loved her.
As well as her bag and keys, her hair straighteners were on and plugged in, as though she was getting ready to go out, probably to meet her dad.
Ant also says he saw blood in the apartment, there was some on the door frame, computer desk and mouse mat, not a lot -just small smears. Later confirmed by the police but unusually not all the blood is tested, the blood on the mouse isn’t. so, whilst some of the blood is confirmed as Phoebe's, we can’t be sure about all of it.
Again we all agreed that we would be concerned if we saw this and couldn’t find our partner or loved one in five mins.
Ant doesn’t seem to do anything at this point – computer records show he is on his computer for a bit at 6.51pm which is when Len calls Phoebe’s iPhone,
Len was calling the iPhone to tell Phoebe he’d finished work (they were due to meet for dinner that night) but gets the voicemail.
30 seconds later Ant calls Len for the first time ever in the 18 months that he has been living with his daughter, and they and they have a 3 min call.
Ant tells him that Phoebe isn’t there and he doesn’t know where she is. He goes on to say that she wasn’t there when he got home from work at 6pm.
Len is concerned especially due to the Tomato soup text the day earlier and when discussing next steps, Ant advises he doesn’t think the police will take a missing person report seriously at this stage.
When Len gets of the phone to Ant, he immediately starts calling the rest of the family -contacting everyone he knows asking if anyone had heard from phoebe. To no avail, no one has seen or heard from her.
7.06pm Ant has been home for an hour, around this time he orders Thai food, from the very same restaurant where he was supposed to be having dinner with Phoebe and Len, to celebrate his coming birthday. Did he just assume that he wasn’t going now and that they weren’t meeting? Did he think she left without him and hadn’t reached her Dad yet -but he still fancied the Thai food? like he was really looking forward to Thai, gets home thinks the shrine is them breaking up? Or it symbolises the death of their relationship? Or worse and he’s like I still want Thai food bitch!
7.06-7.09pm the body is found by the concierge on the floor of the refuse room.
Eleven floors up, when Ant’s take away arrives, he is told by the delivery person that there are police at the front of the building and Ant mentions to them that his girlfriend is missing.
Ant go’s downstairs and reports Phoebe officially missing to the police.
Ant allegedly doesn’t officially find out about Phoebe until much later. Closer to 8pm. When he is asked to confirm identifying marks and clear description of Phoebe. He starts to notify people about what has happened.
Ant calls Len back to tell him Phoebe has been found, but she is dead, Len has the sad task of informing the rest of the family.
As I said at the start we know that Phoebe went into the chute, there is no argument there, and none in that she went in feet first and then fell landing in the garbage compacter which then almost fully severed her foot. She bled to death, trying to find a way out of the room.
When the police tell Len & Natalie how Phoebe died, they are very confused, they are told that her death is most likely suicide or a terrible accident, but they’ll know more when the autopsy is done.
When the autopsy is completed, and the results come back they use those results to back up the original theory.
Lorne, Phoebe’s grandfather wasn’t convinced at all by the suicide theory nor by the simple physics of how his granddaughter is alleged to have died.
Lorne who I mentioned is an ex detective just couldn’t believe that Phoebe, who had a blood alcohol level of 0.16 almost three times over the legal limit and a 20mg dose of Stillnox / Zolpidem in her system, would have been physically able to get herself into the small hatch never mind the entire chute, on her own.
Before I go further into Lorne and his awesome investigations, I’m just going to tell you a little bit about Stillnox/Zolpidem: it is used by the NHS in the UK as a prescription sleeping tablet. Zolpidem sold under the brand name Ambien, among others, is a medication primarily used for the short-term treatment of sleeping problems. Its effect time is noted at half an hour and its last time is noted at 3 hours. Stillnox as we will call it here has been made famous by others than Phoebe, it has been banned in relation to sports because taking it with an energy drink apparently induces a high similar to amphetamine (don’t do drugs kids, especially not that chemical shit) there have been two cases of Stillnox associated homicide and many more reports of it causing people to do unusual things, it’s side effects alone make a list for a bad trip including hallucinations, sensory distortions, delirium and amnesia. I’ll link the article in the ref section but crikey it is not a fun read for the side effects alone. Stillnox is increasingly being linked to increasingly bad or bizarre behaviour.
On the crime junkie podcast Brit offers that some of the people she has spoken to who have used Stillnox have noted that they have done things like sleep walk or woke up in their car- she raises a good point in saying it is similar to muscle memory - they do regular things – this isn’t that. what if it was an obsession for Phoebe or an idea that got stuck in her head. If so, you’d have expected mention in one of her journals? Or a mention to Ant at some point?
I think you can see where I am going with this, Was Phoebe in a delusional state? She’s mixed this horrible drug with alcohol and is already of low mood… could someone in a delusional state manage to get into the chute? Lorne to the rescue again, Lorne doesn’t accept this as an option.
It is so hard to control your movements when you’ve had a drink, I mean in your head you can do certain things, but your body just doesn’t cooperate when you’ve got the giggle juice in you.
We had a quick story time in the live meeting, were i regaled my story of a strange reaction to over the counter medicine whilst on holiday once. I'm going to save that for the podcast.
Lorne’s awesome investigations & recreations!! (sang like a jingle)
He took two of her friends Viv & Sarah to the apartment building (the same Sarah from earlier - the boxer) she is a very similar stature to Phoebe and they tried to get in, they both managed to get seated in the opening but said even sober they struggled. Sarah notes that you would have to hyper extend, meaning your hands would have to be on the sides of the wall which makes her question the lack of usable fingerprints, she says it’s impossible.
So there is a lot of emphasis placed on the no prints angle and I feel like some clarification is needed, because there were prints around the chute, none of them were usable and none were able to be used in a comparison but they did exist. there were none inside the chute, however. I did find mention of it being hard to leave and thus remove prints from brushed metal. That said there were no prints on the external handle and nothing around it. perhaps they were cleaned afterwards, and if so by who? Did Ant clean it? Or a member of staff?
Lorne still wasn’t satisfied so he recreated the actual chute, Lorne went as far as to have a replica of the chute built, he contacted the manufacturers and they helped him build it, they made an identical replica of identical dimensions. The guy who made it has been in the game 30 years and he has never heard of anything like Phoebes case happening before.
The 60 mins Australia report on Phoebe’s death and subsequent investigation describe the chute as a drawer that pulls out - but not fully it fans open, so the top gets wider, but the bottom is still connected to the wall. It’s like a charity clothes donation bin, you know the big green ones, the cleaner of Phoebe’s apt describes it as akin to a bear trap.
I have the dimensions here, so at its widest point the slot is 37.2cm by 22cms that’s 14.5inches and 8.5inches. that isn’t excessively big at all and bear in mind it is a metre off the ground also.
You can watch the video on 60 minutes. She did manage to do it but… well watch it.
13.02 is where the reconstruction starts in the video if that’s all you’re going there for.
Viv one of Phoebe’s friends and her match in weight and size manages to get in, however she struggles not to get her head and upper arms through, Viv doesn’t just get in and slide down, she has to sort of stand up and then manoeuvre herself into the slot and then down into the actual chute, she can’t get herself in there without her arms being up above her head. And she can’t do this without the assistance of Lorne and the host of the show, in that they have to sort of hold that slot door/flap open so that it doesn’t fall back onto the girls hands or fingers, it’s mechanised to shut automatically. It is an exact replica
Phoebe had no injuries to her fingers etc. – she had bruising on her shoulder and arms and elbows; Natalie got all the information from the coroner including the pathology report - she knows every detail of her daughters injuries.
now the police/ authorities have always implied that Phoebe controlled her fall by using her arms etc. and that’s what caused the bruises. From watching that, it didn’t happen like that because as we just pointed out she couldn’t have fit into the chute like that. Where the bruises caused when she was getting in, i.e. past the point of when the top of shoulders went into the chute? Was it catching on her as she tried to get down? Or were they caused by someone manhandling her into a position where she was able to be placed into the chute?
There is a lot of balance needed to manage that – Viv agrees that it was hard to balance and she agrees that she would think that Phoebe would struggle to maintain that balance – she agrees that Phoebe was of the same ability as her but that if she had been drinking she would have struggled with the balance aspect of the task and Lorne agrees that someone with that level of intoxication wouldn’t be able to pull it off.
Okay now let’s discuss the pants – from all we’ve said above – how do you explain her jeans being around the bottom of her legs.
The fall couldn’t have dislodged her pants. How much can you move in jeans anyway - I feel like she would have just taken them off if they were bugging her? When she got down into the room did, she try to pull them off to staunch the flow of blood to her foot? Assess the damage? Would that be something you would do if you were crawling around the floor trying to find a way out? Trying to survive? Her pants were below her thigh.
Dani raised a good point in that had the actual mechanism chewed the material up and dragged them down? I’m not sure exactly if and how that could work but it is a good point, and something I need to look into further.
Another theory is that her legs had been hobbled on purpose – Did someone pull them down to keep her legs together whilst they fed her through the chute? That sounds more plausible to me. Natalie does comment that she fears it could be a sign of sexual assault.
But the vest top or singlet she was wearing hadn’t ridden up? Or it had and she took the time to pull it down along with her jeans? Whilst she was bleeding to death and looking for an exit. What do you think?
Viv says she was physically exerted during the experiment/ reconstruction – she appears to be so too; it isn’t an easy fete. But as Byron Collins an expert pathologist who looked at Phoebe's case for the Podcast is quoted as saying - not easy but not impossible.
So technically Phoebe could have gotten into the chute, it does sound unlikely but it’s not completely out of the realms of possibility, right?
All the questions that come from the families independently collected information and evidence raised a lot of questions, but no answers were available – time of death, didn’t check the body. CCTV? Anyone in or out, any footage of Ant or another person anywhere else? Anything in the garbage bins? Computer records? There was nothing available - it was an inadequate investigation in many people’s opinions.
by the time Video footage was from the building –it had been recorded over. Why didn’t the building check the footage, if that happened in my building, I’d want to see it.
When they finally get to the phone and computer which were kept in the apartment with Ant, they found that all her emails had been deleted. They don’t when, how or who deleted them, but they were gone.
The glass on the floor – that was never investigated – it was assumed that she had broken a glass and then perhaps stood on it or cut her hand with it. But there was no blood found on the external door to the apartment or outside around the hatch or blooded prints etc.
The assistant coroner noted there was no liquid on the floor to accompany the glass but there was some found on the wall.
That substance was never tested –more than what it could be is the symbolism here, someone threw a glass at the wall. That doesn’t happen in anything other than anger or frustration in my experience and my question would be who threw it? I’m sure if we believe that narrative of Phoebe’s low mood and her relationship problems, we can tie it in nicely on her part but what if it was someone else who was angry at having found something.
Why would anyone want to put Phoebe down the chute? Natalie agrees it is a good question and one she can’t answer – “it’s a good Way to dispose of someone though.”
When asked Natalie believes that Phoebe was placed in the chute – the same as Lorne – but when asked who they think may have done that ‘they don’t know’.
Natalie also believes there was something that happened in the apartment before Phoebe went into the chute.
There are lot's of theories out there on what could have happened - What if Phoebe accidentally overdosed? She’s been on a bender, she’s sorted the dog out she’s out at night, so she has a drink and take some tablets and then gets some rest. He comes back and finds her passed out or in a state? Does he think because of the shrine she is already dead and starts to formulate the plan of what to do? Or do they argue, he smashes the glass and then they fight, she falls, and he thinks he’s killed her? Initial panic, everyone knows they hadn’t been getting on people have seen him return, he doesn’t know who she’s seen or been in contact with, but he knows they are due out later. So, he thinks of the most practical way to dispose of her and does it. Only he doesn’t realise she is still alive, or did she get into the chute for whatever reason and did someone just stand and watch? And if not the pre chute scenario did someone for whatever reason place her in the chute?
Lorne tested the theory ‘did someone put her in the chute?’ it shows a strong man can feed a slight woman into the chute when she pretends to be unconscious.
the question then is why would anyone want to cover up Phoebes death?
Ant is a well-known and well positioned person among Australian society, His father is a prominent retired judge, and his stepmother felicity is also a county court judge. That’s some well-connected legal counsel with some heavy clout one would imagine.
Ant wouldn’t speak to the family or help the family in their investigations. His entire behaviour surrounding the event was ‘off’ the policeman who initially interviewed him said that he was crying but with no real tears and later noted how he seemed to like the attention that grieving got him. Len and Natalie arranged to meet Ant and when they turned up the apartment was full of his friends and he was too distraught to come out of his bedroom, he was having hypnotherapy or some such treatment. They were left with Ants mum and a friend who were trying to talk to Natalie about a memorial for Phoebe- Natalie is quoted as saying she wasn’t ready for that it seemed crass to her. And made her feel sick.
She finally arranges to meet up with Ant again after he kept telling her that he was too distraught and Lorne the legend told his daughter to take a recording device, which she did. When she finally meets with Ant, George Hampel was there too and Ant couldn’t look her in the eye.
Natalie recorded Ant secretly and you can hear excerpts on the Podcast link above.
Remember the ruling, The Coroner, Peter White had to make? the decision on what had happened to Phoebe– Suicide / accident/ homicide. Or as his own assistant counsel had recommended, he could have made an open finding meaning the police would be able to re-investigate the case should new evidence be raised or found?
Because of that controversial ruling Ant has never been named a person of interest – because you can’t in an accident – you could if an open finding stood?
On Reddit, user I’m not going to mention for legal reasons posted on a thread about Phoebe that if anyone mentions Phoebe or Ant in connection to her death then they are swiftly sued, and that is well known in Melbourne.
I think we’ve covered pretty much everything there and that was how Phoebe’s case remained, no open finding. Still an accident. The family have managed to go on never getting over Phoebe's death or the unusual events surrounding it, nothing has changed.
Ant moved on and continued to work and expand and re-brand his company, he got married and divorced and then dated again and eventually met Bailey Snyder.
In June 2018 25 yr. old model and dancer Bailee had been to a party on a Friday after work, the party had been at a friend’s house, this friend was in fact Ant’s friend, although Ant wasn’t in attendance at the time. She came home in the early hours of Saturday morning around 8;30am and crossed paths with her parents whom she still lived with. They were about to leave for the day, and they noted that she was on the phone and seemed to be upset and was arguing with her boyfriend, Ant.
When they got home they found her slumped on the kitchen floor with a gold chord around her neck, now in a scary similarity to Phoebe, the police quickly ruled it a suicide despite the fact there was nowhere for her to hang herself from. To me that means she was strangled, they don’t collect any evidence, no phone or anything. And again, it took the family and the media asking questions and raising the problems with the case for them to finally collect her phone months later.
A toxicology report showed Bailee had three times the legal driving alcohol limit and traces of cocaine in her bloodstream at the time of her death. Her parents found a half to three-quarter finished bottle of red wine when they discovered their daughter's body.
Bailey’s case changed in Dec 2019 her case was reclassified and there was an active investigation into her case.
Both young women, similar ages, bizarre deaths, lapse investigations and the same Boyfriend? I mean come on.
I truly hoped that would means something for Phoebe's case also, but in June 2020, Bailey’s case was ruled a suicide.
'Deputy Coroner Caitlin English said a review by experienced homicide detective Acting Senior Sergeant Paul Rowe of the circumstances of Ms Schneider's death found that it was due to self-inflicted asphyxiation in the family home.'
Her parents have said that they accept the opinion of the experienced forensic pathologist Matthew Lynch, who believed the circumstances, while "not entirely clear", were not suspicious.
There is a little something else that i found interesting as that was that Ant was noted as referring to Phoebe as his flatmate in a comment over heard by her father, who implies it was a way to down play their relationship.
Ant Hampel was 51yrs old when Bailey died and he made statements much like he did with Phoebe's case, l made two statements to police to assist the coronial investigation and stated he did not consider he was in a serious relationship with Ms Schneider.
Ms English said Detective Rowe's review "noted it was evident from the material in the phone records that the two had a personal relationship which included frequent communications and at least two trips away together".
One last theory that arose from the live discussion meeting was what if there was someone who was close to Ant in some way? a close friend or an ex? someone who didn't like his relationship choices here or the way they were perceived to be treating Ant and did something about it?
What's your theory on what happened?
Written by K.
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